tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post4962777518142195822..comments2023-11-02T06:37:23.839-06:00Comments on daveberta.ca: the senate is just the start. canada now needs some serious constitutional reform.davebertahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06822739409684978316noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-31707580106185843442008-05-21T16:10:00.000-06:002008-05-21T16:10:00.000-06:00I think the idea of a Triple-E senate is something...I think the idea of a Triple-E senate is something that the Reform Party got right. Back in the 1980s they were the only ones actually calling for real democratic reform in Canada and it is one of the only things they got right.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-83482808979190851632008-05-21T12:57:00.000-06:002008-05-21T12:57:00.000-06:00Get rid of all the aristocratic anti democratic re...Get rid of all the aristocratic anti democratic residue – Queen and Senate.<BR/><BR/>There no reason for Canada to keep a body whose main reason for being was to provide an “elitist check” on the will of "commoners". <BR/> <BR/>That said, status quo, with the senate having no real power, is way better than "effective" senate.Kobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03407275645274060038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-82777205219474534872008-05-21T12:16:00.000-06:002008-05-21T12:16:00.000-06:00Koby - I'd be happy to give the senate a clear swo...Koby - I'd be happy to give the senate a clear swoop and have all the appointed members removed.<BR/><BR/>In terms of the Senate providing provincial representation in Ottawa, I don't buy this argument. First of all, provincial boundaries are artificially created, and second as a federation, Canadians elect provincial Premier's who have more political power than Senators. Do we want to move towards a more centralized form of federalism in Canada, with Senators representing provinces nationally rather than Premiers? Also, I don't think it would be very democratic for PEI to have the same amount of representation in the Senate as Ontario.<BR/><BR/>Of course, I'm not totally opposed to abolishing the Upper House. In it's current form, most Canadians probably wouldn't notice much of a difference.davebertahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06822739409684978316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-15094806373094446372008-05-21T12:14:00.000-06:002008-05-21T12:14:00.000-06:00Koby - I'd be happy to give the senate a clear swo...Koby - I'd be happy to give the senate a clear swoop and have all the appointed members removed.<BR/><BR/>In terms of the Senate providing provincial representation in Ottawa, I don't buy this argument. First of all, provincial boundaries are artificially created, and second as a federation, Canadians elect provincial Premier's who have more political power than Senators. Do we want to move towards a more centralized form of federalism in Canada, with Senators representing provinces nationally rather than Premiers? Also, I don't think it would be very democratic for PEI to have the same amount of representation in the Senate as Ontario.<BR/><BR/>Of course, I'm not totally opposed to abolishing the Upper House. In it's current form, most Canadians probably wouldn't notice much of a difference.davebertahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06822739409684978316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-65228497077263273032008-05-21T12:08:00.000-06:002008-05-21T12:08:00.000-06:00Maestro, I don't think I was at Senator Tardif's c...Maestro, I don't think I was at Senator Tardif's conference, but I've heard that argument many times in the past. I would never disparage those appointed Senators who take their jobs with seriousness and responsibility, but I question the legitimacy of an entire house of parliament filled with appointees. It is sober second thought from a group of politics elites who for a large part were appointed due to political connections (though one could argue that the House of Commons isn't much better). I think that in 2008 we are past the point of having an appointed Senate give <I>sober second thought</I> to the will of an elected lower house. It's an issue of democracy.davebertahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06822739409684978316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-54883865013998120072008-05-21T03:23:00.000-06:002008-05-21T03:23:00.000-06:00I think I said the 7 smallest. I meant the 6 smal...I think I said the 7 smallest. I meant the 6 smallest. I think I also said twice the seats. I meant twice as many people per seat.Kobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03407275645274060038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-40061112804957671452008-05-21T00:09:00.000-06:002008-05-21T00:09:00.000-06:00"While mathemtically accurate, your comment is pol..."While mathemtically accurate, your comment is politically and stategically incorrect. The "per capita MP" ratio is meaningless.<BR/><BR/>Strategically, a political party wishing to gain power could lift the proverbial big fat middle finger to PEI without any consequence, if in doing so they were pandering to Ontario and/or Quebec."<BR/><BR/>They would have a much easier time giving the big fat middle finger to any number of ridings and unlike this PEI has a huge number of resources at its disposal simply by virtue of being a province. Oh and by the way the population of the 7 smallest provinces together with the 3 territories have the same population as the 416 and 905 put together but twice the seats. In terms of federal resources available it is not even close.Kobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03407275645274060038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-35510775848596866612008-05-21T00:01:00.000-06:002008-05-21T00:01:00.000-06:00Dave, you raise some interesting points, in some s...Dave, you raise some interesting points, in some sense, I agree that an updating of the Senate's requirements should be done, but on the wider issue of whether or not Senators should be elected, I think that's where we're differing. If I recall correctly, I believe you attended the conference given by Senator Tardif on the topic, which highlighted the need for sober second thought away from the political games that plague the Commons, as well as the historical importance of the kind of representation one gets from the Senate.Maestrohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04141875446471236411noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-8967374813145278032008-05-20T21:37:00.000-06:002008-05-20T21:37:00.000-06:00"I'm having a hard time believing that anything le..."I'm having a hard time believing that anything less than a complete overhaul is actually going to make a real difference in the long run."<BR/><BR/>But your suggested solutions all point toward eliminating bodies that don't actually do anything. That's not going to make a real difference in the long run, either, is it?<BR/><BR/>Or are you talking about just the money wasted?Gauntlethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05061438876627317881noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-42611154607178484642008-05-20T21:03:00.000-06:002008-05-20T21:03:00.000-06:00koby,While mathemtically accurate, your comment is...koby,<BR/>While mathemtically accurate, your comment is politically and stategically incorrect. The "per capita MP" ratio is meaningless.<BR/><BR/>Strategically, a political party wishing to gain power could lift the proverbial big fat middle finger to PEI without any consequence, if in doing so they were pandering to Ontario and/or Quebec.<BR/><BR/>Substitute Alberta for PEI, and - depending on the party you favour - Quebec for Ontatio, and you have our current situation.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-81752730805289001602008-05-20T18:24:00.000-06:002008-05-20T18:24:00.000-06:00I can imagine a worse idea. Being unable to “refor...I can imagine a worse idea. <BR/><BR/>Being unable to “reform” the Senate in one fell swoop, Harper has proposed electing effective Senators piece meal. Under the Conservative plan, new senators would be elected and would be limited to serving out an 8 year term. The problem is that people already in the senate would be free to serve until the age of 75. On the face of it the result of such nonsense would be either to transform an unelected political body with no power into a largely unelected political body with real political power, or commit Canadians to the farcical and expensive act of electing people to office who hold no real power. <BR/><BR/>An effective senate is an afront to democracy. <BR/><BR/>One of the main purposes of the Canadian senate and the US senate, which were both modeled after the British system, was check the will of the common people.<BR/><BR/>The other purpose of the senate in both the US and Canada, of course, was to provide regional representation. Smaller states and Provinces wanted their interests protected before agreeing to form a Federation. For example, the Southern States wanted to make sure the Northern States, were most Americans lived in and live now, would not be able to abolish slavery. Yes the US senate has done a lot of good over the years.<BR/><BR/>Some believe that the regions need more say and an “equal” “effective” and “elected” senate is the best way of achieving a balance between population centers in Eastern Canada and the rest of us. The problem is two fold. First such an argument rests on a false contrast; seats in the House of Commons are supposed to be assigned on basis of population, but in actuality that is not the case. For example, PEI has a population of 135,851 and has 4 MPs and people in the riding of Oak Ridges Markham has a population of 169, 642 obviously only has 1 MP. In other words, a vote in Oak Ridges Markham has less the 5th the value of a vote cast in Charlottetown. Assuming that no government would ever dare take away seats from a particular province or region, the government would have to add a ton more seats to make it have way equal. If the government would commit to an MP for every 70,000 people the new numbers would break down as follows. Ontario would gain 67 seats, Quebec 32, BC 23, Alberta 19, and Manitoba, Nova Scotia 2 each. All total, a 145 seats should be added, most of those in urban areas. Even then there would still be outliers. PEI, and the territories would still be over represented. The second reason is that comparing province to province is a perverse misnomer. It is comparing apples to oranges. The people living in Canada’s less populated provinces (hello again PEI) have a mechanism to assure that regional concerns are addressed; it is called province jurisdiction and provincial representation. By the very nature of living in a province with a small population, the 135,851 people in PEI have plenty of ways of addressing regional concerns that are not available to, for example, the 169, 642 residents of Oak Ridges Markham. All in all, comparing province to province is a perverse misnomer. A province is no more or less than the people that make up that province. Giving the 135,851 in PEI the power to determine everything under provincial jurisdiction, provincial representation and 4 MPs well all the while given 169, 642 Oak Ridges Markham one MP is bad enough as it is. Giving the 135,851 people in PEI the same number of “effective” senators, as per the American Triple E Senate model, as 12.1 million Ontarians is beyond stupid and grossly undemocratic.<BR/><BR/>Needless to say, if push comes to shove, abolishing the senate is far more preferable to senate Reform. No province has a second chamber, most abolished them, and they are doing just fine. Furthermore there are numerous examples of unicameral nation states. New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, Israel, Sweden, Iceland, Liechtenstein, South Korea and Portugal are all unicameral.Kobyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03407275645274060038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-20875562688426300932008-05-20T18:21:00.000-06:002008-05-20T18:21:00.000-06:00Now that Saskatchewan has taken Alberta's lead in ...Now that Saskatchewan has taken Alberta's lead in supporting Senate reform, maybe Alberta will take Saskatchewan's lead in supporting fixed election dates.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-41602259109382678532008-05-20T18:19:00.000-06:002008-05-20T18:19:00.000-06:00Also, past Senate elections have been handled by E...Also, past Senate elections have been handled by Elections Alberta, rather than Elections Canada. Should this be changed? And if it will be partisan, should it be provincial or federal parties? I'm up for the idea of a non-partisan senate. Less control for the parties and the executive branch.davebertahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06822739409684978316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-31345807544347005492008-05-20T18:17:00.000-06:002008-05-20T18:17:00.000-06:00Yeah, I guess I kind of did.I should note that I s...Yeah, I guess I kind of did.<BR/><BR/>I should note that I spoiled my Senate election ballot in 2004 for the reason that not one candidate on that list even came close to representing my political views.davebertahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06822739409684978316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-50832545689775484032008-05-20T17:05:00.000-06:002008-05-20T17:05:00.000-06:00you washed over the Alberta senate thing a little ...you washed over the Alberta senate thing a little too quick there, Dave.<BR/>What passed for an election of Senate candidates here was as big a fraud as any ever perpetrated in the name of democracy.<BR/>If we're going to start promoting elected senate, lets insure the candidates do NOT belong to the party system.<BR/>Haven't Alberta Tories rigged enough "democracy"?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com