tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post4549484992310204375..comments2023-11-02T06:37:23.839-06:00Comments on daveberta.ca: does policy matter?davebertahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06822739409684978316noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-52931499749969797762010-02-04T13:35:18.267-07:002010-02-04T13:35:18.267-07:00the rationale for excluding blacks was not a part ...the rationale for excluding blacks was not a part of the original theology of the mormon church - it came during the time of Brigham Young; much of what Young preached has been abandoned with time.<br /><br />There is a trend that the church follows the lead of the living president over what has been preached by previous leaders. I don't know of an official policy of supremacy of one president over another, but that seem to be the practice.<br /><br />Why do you belittle the existence of groups who ARE debating issues within the church? They may be small, but they have to start somewhere. I choose to believe they show that mormons have the potential to exist in a progressive society, even if they do face some major challenges.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00002640267203992480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-81612308283304075822010-02-04T12:48:59.453-07:002010-02-04T12:48:59.453-07:00Stuart, you're missing the point. The point i...Stuart, you're missing the point. The point isn't simply the fact of exluding blacks. The point is their offensive theological rationale for doing so - which they've never backed away from...for to do so would be to open up cans of worms about whether their so-called prophets are full of it. It's not in the past, it's current. Same goes for their indefensible views about Aboriginals. <br />I would submit that if you believe that the origin of non-white races has anything to do with sin or god's disfavour you are, by definition, a racist. It doesn't really matter if the church now deigns to admit blacks to the priesthood, or is trying to quietly finesse the absurd views about the origin of Aboriginal peoples. It doesn't take long to find quotes and clips of mormon leaders saying outrageously racist things. And certainly lots of mormons, like lots of non-mormons, do hold lots of subtle and not-so-subtle racist views. <br /><br />If you concede the mormon doctrine and practice is deeply influenced by the times, then the prophetic claims of leaders should be subject to debate and dissent should be more welcome than it is. <br /><br />Finally, your Sunstone folks and little web-communities of more progressive or thoughtful mormons are very, very marginal to the main, corporate church. And the boundaries of acceptable "dissent" are pretty broadly known. Cross them and you'll get excommunicated. You sound like a fairly reasonable person. Get out while you still can.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-44816877743144290782010-02-04T08:36:09.630-07:002010-02-04T08:36:09.630-07:00But it seems like you're assuming Mormons them...But it seems like you're assuming Mormons themselves are racist and I've never seen any evidence of that being true. <br /><br />I don't defend the mormon church excluding blacks from church offices, but revisiting the issues won't fix the problem - sort of a you-can't-undo-the-past thing. <br /><br />And I will point out that there is a fairly healthy debate among some groups of mormons (although admittedly not in official church circles) about many of the theological positions held by the church (ie. no female priests, positions on homosexuality, etc.). <br /><br />The mormon church as it exists today retains a lot of its nineteenth century character. But I'd suggest that many Mormons want to change that. Check out sites like mormonmatters.org or look up the sunstone magazine and you'll see some of this debate for yourself.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00002640267203992480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-7804369736427044972010-02-04T07:50:56.375-07:002010-02-04T07:50:56.375-07:00I love how Stuart thinks he can just say the Mormo...I love how Stuart thinks he can just say the Mormon church "discontinued" discriminatory practices against blacks. That's true, but hardly puts the issue to rest. The racism remains. They've never changed the underlying theological position about why blacks were discriminated against in the first place, and they've never said it was wrong to have discriminated. It's more like "ok, this is really bad PR...we better stop....nothing to see here folks, everyone please move on."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-31966905509267950262010-02-04T07:44:28.861-07:002010-02-04T07:44:28.861-07:00Avenging Angel,
Can you read? Come on. Knee-jerk...Avenging Angel,<br />Can you read? Come on. Knee-jerk defensiveness doesn't get us anywhere. On my reading, there's nothing bigoted or ignorant there; if you disagree with the claims, dispute them, don't call names. The so-called sinister claims made all strike me as demonstrably true. <br /><br />Nobody suggested the Mormon Church is directing the WRA. At least the previous poster didn't. The suggestion is simply that nature and extent of Mormons' connection with the new party is a legitimate issue for public debate. I agree, particularly since that church has a demonstrated penchant for theocracy, and holds some...uh..."interesting" views.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-16902312975896422872010-02-03T14:16:36.393-07:002010-02-03T14:16:36.393-07:00Clearly you can't be bothered to perform unbia...Clearly you can't be bothered to perform unbiased research into this matter. If you insist on believing Mormons are as sinister as you suggest, there is nothing that will convince you otherwise.<br /><br />Suggesting the Mormon Church is directing the Wild Rose Party is like suggesting the Masons and Jews are in league to control the world's banks - it's bigotted and ignorant.avenging angelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-62083043284404757412010-02-03T13:16:58.589-07:002010-02-03T13:16:58.589-07:00Stuart, that is NOT the view of the mormon church....Stuart, that is NOT the view of the mormon church. Their view is very clearly that where the church has an official position, everyone should follow it. Period. Even if it conflicts with their conscience. In such cases, people are counseled that they're misguided. In some cases, they're even kicked out for obeying their "conscience". (The Catholic church, for all its issues, is more pluralistic or less disciplinarian.) Never mind that the mormon church's official position quietly changes, usually with no clear rationale, and never with any admission that the old policy was wrong or an apology for now adopting a policy that they previously kicked people out for publicly advocating. The Mormons' positions on the origin of aboriginal peoples is particularly heinous - in my humble view. Righteousness = whiteness. <br /><br />The fact that you can find a few outlying (or confused?) mormons on the left, and that they've obsessively tried to rebrand themselves as mainstream, doesn't undo the fact that generally they're very right wing with some goofy theological/historical tenets, and that the mormon church has (both openly and more secretly) supported right wing causes. The mormon church's (or even individual mormons') involvement with or influence in the WRA is a legitimate issue for public debate.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-85487704176921466032010-01-29T12:01:15.148-07:002010-01-29T12:01:15.148-07:00well... as i've always understood it, the morm...well... as i've always understood it, the mormon church takes the view that everyone should act according to thier own conscience. most people do tend to follow the church leadership, but the leadership isn't homogenous either - they hold a variety of viewpoints as well.<br /><br />look at it this way - is a person still a Conservative if they agree with most of the Conservative party's positions, but not all? I'd say yes.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00002640267203992480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-88361189043001208122010-01-29T10:23:35.642-07:002010-01-29T10:23:35.642-07:00This does raise interesting questions. I don't...This does raise interesting questions. I don't know alot about religion but how can you belong to a church and not accept or agree with the leadetrship? If you do not agree with the leadership does it mean that you don't belong to the church? or should be thrown out of it. Is a church member complicit with its leaders wishes simply by belonging?<br /><br />I'm not taking sides here but I dont know where the disconnect is.....when is someone part of something or not.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-17822816811278233262010-01-29T08:50:43.892-07:002010-01-29T08:50:43.892-07:00and your statements aren't bigoted?
just be...and your statements aren't bigoted? <br /><br />just because the church leadership takes this position doesn't mean averyone agress with it. do all catholics agree with their church's position on birth control and abortion? Many do, but many don't.<br /><br />to be fair, many mormons do hold political beliefs unpalatable to the left (though experience teaches that many individuals on the left are as backward as many on the right). But to attack an entire group indicates prejudice, smallmindedness, and ignorance.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00002640267203992480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-64103130683305345322010-01-28T17:34:21.690-07:002010-01-28T17:34:21.690-07:00Who are the bigots?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?...Who are the bigots?<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upWb2jBk5xwAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-61604926895888897172010-01-28T13:17:38.871-07:002010-01-28T13:17:38.871-07:00Hey all,
Thanks for the comments and interesting ...Hey all,<br /><br />Thanks for the comments and interesting discussion. I have had to delete a couple of comments in this post for obvious reasons. Please keep it clean.<br /><br />Thanks.<br /><br />Davedavebertahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06822739409684978316noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-84934672544900138462010-01-28T07:38:39.977-07:002010-01-28T07:38:39.977-07:00I take issue with an earlier poster reffering to, ...I take issue with an earlier poster reffering to, and I losely quote "Mormons do great work around the world and ask for nothing in return."<br /><br />That's simply not true. They have agressive missionaries who seek to spread their faith, most often to those they have just helped.<br /><br />In doesn't invalidate the work they do, but let's not pretend nothing is asked for in return. All religions are in constant recruitment mode. I think it has something to do with the fact that all religions know that thinking people will one day cast their nonsense aside (again, this applies to all religions). The only way to defeat the self doubt inside the practicing member is for that member to convert every last soul to their beliefs. I'm sure the self doubt would be quieter in a world where everyone agreed on the same brand of nonsense. Thankfully that will never be the case.<br /><br />On a seperate note, if Danielle Smith refuses to flesh out her party in terms of policy then I think debates like these (Mormon conspiracy!) will only continue to dog her and her squad. She and her party have had a lot of successes so far. Now they need to take it to the next level and start showing Albertans the Wild Rose vision for governance.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-80165789994915993972010-01-27T13:35:50.578-07:002010-01-27T13:35:50.578-07:00See, this is what I mean. Shout 'Mormon' ...See, this is what I mean. Shout 'Mormon' and people lose thier heads.<br /><br />And no, I have nothing to do with the PCs. My political credentials come from elsewhere.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00002640267203992480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-64710650109485617202010-01-27T13:24:24.296-07:002010-01-27T13:24:24.296-07:00I'm not attacking their faith. History is! Do ...I'm not attacking their faith. History is! Do you deny any of the facts I've posted are accurate?<br /><br />Oh, and if you have something to do with the PC party, I'm kinda glad it's doomed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-44589133348203263682010-01-27T13:23:35.794-07:002010-01-27T13:23:35.794-07:00What does it hurt if he chose to swear on the Book...What does it hurt if he chose to swear on the Book of Mormon? Is it an issue if someone chooses to swear on any other holy book?<br />And no other church or religious group is politically active? No political Catholics? No political Presbyterians? No political Muslims? No political Sikhs? The LDS church encourages its members to become involved in politics and they do. <br />I’m not denying that polygamy was a part of the Mormon Church’s history. The first Mormons came to Alberta because they hoped the Canadian government would be more permissive of polygamy than the US government had been. Polygamy continued until the 1930’s in some cases – those who continued the practice after that point were formally excommunicated. <br />And yes, the church did have discriminatory policies against black people until the ‘70’s. But they discontinued them.<br />I’m not saying you shouldn’t question – but experience teaches that people don’t act rationally when the topic of religion comes up. Many people hear the word ‘mormon’ and instantly their knee jerks. They decide before they even look that they’re opposed to it. <br />It’s easy to blame the Mormons for right wing policies in the WRA, but to do so is to deny the affect that right wing atheists, evangelicals, etc. also have.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00002640267203992480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-46714215842055508262010-01-27T13:14:43.294-07:002010-01-27T13:14:43.294-07:00Really R.G., you gutsy anonymous poster you. If y...Really R.G., you gutsy anonymous poster you. If you're going to stand up and attack someone's personal faith, at least have the cajones to actually let us know the identity of the bigot.<br /><br />I'm sure you're one of those disingenuous Liberals who talk out of both sides of their mouths, who say, for example:<br /><br />"Jean Chretien's personal beliefs on abortion are irrelevant, because HE separates his personal faith from his duties as a politician."<br /><br />BUT..<br /><br />Oh, it's so important to us to be worried about Stock Day and Stephen Harper - even though they also have never taken any steps to demonstrate his faith either as a component of his job as a politician.<br /><br />Oh. I. See.<br /><br />And I'm sure you are also very concerned over Conservative MLA Moe Amery, because *gasp* he's one of those <i>Muslims</i>.. and we know how dangerous their views are as well.<br /><br />Hypocrite.<br /><br />Bigot.<br /><br />Welcome to Alberta, land of the intolerant.. at least on the so-called "progressive" side of the spectrum.Robert G. Harvie, Q.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10414822301931567654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-21236599216863009972010-01-27T13:11:34.758-07:002010-01-27T13:11:34.758-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Robert G. Harvie, Q.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10414822301931567654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-90501105445324042182010-01-27T12:51:01.951-07:002010-01-27T12:51:01.951-07:00Your defense of faith is admirable. However, there...Your defense of faith is admirable. However, there is no constitutional defense against criticizing organized religion. When Paul Hinman brought his Book of Mormon into the legislature, to be used at his swearing in, he made his faith a matter of public record. Please explain to me why he needs to advertise his brand of personal faith. Isn't his faith between him and his god?<br /><br />You delicately but deliberately forget to mention the propensity for the Mormon church to be active in politics. If you search the web you will see a top 100 most influential Mormons, published by Mormons. Most are politicians.<br /><br />It is incumbent upon us all to examine the beliefs and political activities of organized religion. The Mormon church has been known for its polygamist ideals. In fact, Utah was FORCED to ban polygamy before they were allowed into the union. <br /><br />http://www.media.utah.edu/UHE/s/STATEHOOD.html<br /><br />Their church was officially racist until 1978 (they have never apologized). Was Tom Russert being a (whatever number of nasty names you used) by asking Mitt Romney about his churches' official racist policy?<br /><br />www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcw0woPX5VY<br /><br />When they ADVERTISE the fact that they are Mormon, we have to ask questions about what this could mean.<br /><br />Are you really suggesting that the precepts of organized religion are not up for debate? That's truly scary my friend!In response, R.G.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-81717774669632318762010-01-27T12:49:05.991-07:002010-01-27T12:49:05.991-07:00As soon as I read this I knew it would turn into a...As soon as I read this I knew it would turn into a series of rants on the evils of mormonism.<br /><br />It's easy to equate mormonism with conservatism because mormon culture tends to support issues regarded as socially conservative.<br /><br />But we forget that, throughout Alberta's history, mormons have been associated with parties like the Liberals, UFA, CCF, etc. Mormons, like those of other religions, hold a variety of political beliefs.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00002640267203992480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-24798566823275618622010-01-27T11:47:11.769-07:002010-01-27T11:47:11.769-07:00Nice effort B.B.Kingly.
So, now you are suggestin...Nice effort B.B.Kingly.<br /><br />So, now you are suggesting the Alberta Government's response to the WRA is an attack on their faith? A good part of my PC Board for my local constituency is Mormon, and I'm pretty sure their faith isn't an issue in my constituency or anywhere else that matters in the PC Party.<br /><br />So, I'm left to surmise that, firstly, YOU, B.B., are either a Liberal or NDP supporter, using the crudest form of deception to try and equate what some dingbat says here with the PC Party.<br /><br />Now, if you had made even half an effort to examine who exactly was attacking another person's faith, well, you would have perhaps clicked on the link to the one non-anonymous poster, Merlin Durken, who actually made the post.<br /><br />Then, you would be led to his sad little blog, "Exploitation Retainer Services".<br /><br />And there you would read his bizarre plan to combat capitalism and consumerism by "feeding corporate capitalists everywhere a little of their own medicine."<br /><br />Well.<br /><br />Hardly some advocate of the PC Party, clearly.<br /><br />One would, safely, suggest he is probably a supporter of the Liberal Party or more likely yet, the NDP Party.<br /><br />So.<br /><br />If you're going to slam a political party based upon the rantings of their unhinged supporters, at least use what modicum of intellect you have to figure out who said what, and then, you would no doubt, be attacking the NDP Party of Alberta.<br /><br />I guess so much for "tollerance" coming from the left side of the political spectrum.Robert G. Harvie, Q.C.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10414822301931567654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-64406170589156665932010-01-27T10:17:49.892-07:002010-01-27T10:17:49.892-07:00I would never vote for the Wildrose Alliance in a ...I would never vote for the Wildrose Alliance in a million years. The party is ideological, obssessed with creating division, and the evidence is pretty clear it has become a political front for a small number of greedy Calgary oilmen to stage a well financed coup. And Danielle Smith is essentially a comparatively sane version of Ezra Levant.<br /><br />But if the best smear the anonymous PC/Public Affairs Bureau/Tom Olsen wankocracy can come up with is: "Watch out for the evil Mormon conspiracy," then all hope is lost. The Wildrose Alliance will win the next election, and it will win because the wankocracy -- with all the money and government resources at their disposal -- thinks Albertans are as inept and retarded as they are.<br /><br />Mormon candidates ran for the PCs, Liberals, WAP and Greens in 2008 election. Their faith isn`t my cup of tea, but they have a long and noble history of helping the neediest people in the crapiest places in the world, and ask for nothing in return. Do we really want to get into the shortcomings of the Roman Catholic Church or the Pentecostal Christian sects preferred by Stockwell Day?B.B. Kinglynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-30828785213986811692010-01-26T15:46:05.090-07:002010-01-26T15:46:05.090-07:00And no, to finally answer the question, policy doe...And no, to finally answer the question, policy doesn't really matter. It's the colour of the jerseys. More of a cool hunting phenom than one involving rational choices.Merlin Durkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05691263875192302764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-46224084864662866382010-01-26T15:37:13.589-07:002010-01-26T15:37:13.589-07:00Wildrose Alliance is the saccharin substitute for ...Wildrose Alliance is the saccharin substitute for the Christian Heritage Party in drag with an extreme makeover. They want to rebuild the province the way they would like. <br /><br />Ted Byfield said once that the 'clarity of conservatism' was at war with the evil of Liberalism. I think you can count that as a powerful force in the polarization of politics and vilification of anything not sanctioned from a church basement in Alberta. How are these people any different from the jihadists they want to eliminate from the face of the planet? They are crazy people. Crazy fanatics, and just as ugly as any other fanatic anywhere. <br /><br />Mormonism and Social Credit in the deep south of the province are synonymous. They are conchies to the last man they say, but how is politics not war? <br /><br />Lots of them have false closets where they hide their firearms, waiting for the day 'the system' fails when, bellies full of canned tuna from their hoarded two-year supply, they come out in groups to hunt you down in case you were planning to come over steal their grub and women (and steal whatever you had on hand in the bargain).<br /><br /><br />Remember when you're voting for the lesser of two evils, you're still choosing evil.<br /><br />As Dr. Eugene Chadbourne once said in song, "How do we protect ourselves from leaders who are neurologically impaired?"Merlin Durkenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05691263875192302764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10290429.post-30371954126687036002010-01-26T15:27:49.554-07:002010-01-26T15:27:49.554-07:00Actually, I would prefer Albertans in general have...Actually, I would prefer Albertans in general have more influence over government policy and could care less whether the opinions card-carrying party members who bother to show up at policy conventions carry any weight.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com